[eggFL]

you say it as if putting up Sonic06 was a mistake, but it's not. It has 24 competitors, about the same amount as Secret Rings, and way more than Sonic Rivals. It had informed competition and was played by, among others: RPG, magnum, Psyborg, Thorn, Groudon, Skylights, ks8, me, and of course DSS. And I can't speak for the others but I for one had fun competing in it. And since it initially took so long to put up, there was a forum topic dedicated to it.

[magnum12]

I'm in favor of the former. There's several pros to this one.
1. If we add in Mario and Mega Man alone, we add in some great games to play and compete in. From MM, the Zero series and Powered Up are the flag ship in terms of competition. The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.
2. In adding Mario and Mega Man to the main branch, we already have several hardened veterans who know the games like the back of their hands that can serve as mods, thus we can establish rulings long before competition sets in.
3. The addition of so many great (and diffferent) games might be the morale kick in the pants we've been needing.

[Bilan]

Try not to forgot about TUSC guys

[eggFL]

The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.

X6 huh?

really.... >_>

and what about X6 in particular makes it bad for competition?

[General Throatstomper]

And I can't speak for the others but I for one had fun competing in it.

Aside from DSS and s&a (who doesn't count anyways), I think you're alone there.

So you see that Sonic06 has 24 competitors and therefore deserved a spot in the rankings to begin with...this compared to 161 from Sonic 1, 140 from Sonic 2, 112 for Sonic 3, 91 from Sonic Rush so you can't claim interest in general is just waning as time goes on, even 73 from Shadow, etc. Such a large discrepancy should tell you that people aren't really interested in playing 06.

If you notice, only 'regulars' hold good rankings in 06...I'm willing to bet most bought the game only to have a bid at a championship. A situation like this is not conducive to competition...once people realize how hard it would be to take the top spot in a game, they just don't care.

The remainder of the chart is filled with the normal crowd of people, with noticeably sparse submissions. I'd say '06 is a failure in terms of competition.

It has 24 competitors, about the same amount as Secret Rings, and way more than Sonic Rivals.

Neither of which we would track if we were to change the scope of the site to include other games. If we diversified the games we were to track, we wouldn't be allowing competition for every single game that came out for a franchise to avoid bulkiness...in spite of what you may think of Secret Rings or Sonic Rivals, neither were really that anticipated and would most likely only garnish a small crowd of competitors. You're applying our current standards of adding games to a prospective future method of assessment, which really shouldn't be done in this context.

And since it initially took so long to put up, there was a forum topic dedicated to it.

I'll look for that in a while. On a hunch, I'm gonna say it's only a few people pushing for its addition...I will confirm (or disconfirm) this later.

1. If we add in Mario and Mega Man alone, we add in some great games to play and compete in. From MM, the Zero series and Powered Up are the flag ship in terms of competition. The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.

But I'm not suggesting we add whole franchises in, only popular games with a generally disorganized fanbase. We tried tracking whole franchises once, remember? It's what we have now...and we'll be in the same situation if we continue to track bad games.

Do you mean the 'stinkers' are bad games as a whole, or impossible to compete in? Bad games would not be tracked...they are not relevant because nobody enjoys them, or wants to compete in them.

Our goal here should be to encourage competition in games people enjoy, not to just have a few people grimacing when they play games to take a championship.

3. The addition of so many great (and diffferent) games might be the morale kick in the pants we've been needing.

I agree wholeheartedly; TSC needs fresh games to compete in because competitors have taken a pragmatic stance on their standing ("Oh, I'll never beat (person x)", "I'll never be above (place y)", "I can't play (level z)")...more games make people anxious to gun for the top spot (not what we want really, but still positive because any activity in a game is good), and piques interest.

[Rick_242]

The only real stinkers MM has for competition I can think of are MMX6, MMX7, and the fighters.

X6 huh?

really.... >_>

and what about X6 in particular makes it bad for competition?

Hey hey no.

Take it elsewhere, this isn't the place for that type of argument.

[Bilan]

 [Starly] Also you should consider the amount of people here that even -have- a 360 or PS3
 <genus> and meanwhile Sonic 1 has 160+
 [Starly] As opposed to those with PS2's, GC's and Xbox1's
 <genus> that's true, but I didn't mention it
 [Starly] genus you can get Sonic 1 on your PC for free
 <genus> I hadn't thought of it

[General Throatstomper]

The rest of the conversation:

<Starly> genus you can get Sonic 1 on your PC for free
<genus> I hadn't thought of it
* Starly post
<genus> you can, but the thing is
<genus> even if you compare modern games
<genus> like SRA
<genus> to 06 based on ammount of players
<genus> 06 is markedly low
<genus> in the number of players
<genus> granted we are more a Nintendo-favoring community than anything else
<genus> there are still not enough people competing in 06 to justify its addition after the fact
<genus> and were we to change our standard of game tracking due to a broadened scope
<genus> I doubt it would make the cut

Like I was saying, I do not believe 06 has any procreative value as a venue of competition but this is irrelevant. If we were to not focus on Sonic specifically, there is no way we would ever track 06.

[eggFL]

And since it initially took so long to put up, there was a forum topic dedicated to it.

I'll look for that in a while. On a hunch, I'm gonna say it's only a few people pushing for its addition...I will confirm (or disconfirm) this later.

ok well here is the link if you want:
http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=1879.0

Hey hey no.

Take it elsewhere, this isn't the place for that type of argument.

I thought it was appropriate (and stylish, and amusing) considering my avatar.

plus magnum is an opinion ninja

Anyway, it's obvious magnum was referring to the game overall as a stinker, because it's not particularly bad for competing as far as X games go, easily better than X5 even. X6 is hardly bad, but I guess it doesn't matter what I think, as the game always seemed less popular, and for admittedly justifiable reasons.

But actually, if we go by genus's method, then it doesn't matter, since only X1-X3 would go up out of the X games, and also maybe X4.

anyway, if we leave games out, people are going to ask to have them put up. I guess what I'm saying is, if we track only good games, how would we decide what's good or not? Or maybe I should not bother asking, as it is presumably all figured out. A committee of three of you will decide for yourselves and the final decisions are indisputable. >_>

[magnum12]

I define stinkers as in bad games. X6 is bad because it has some absolutely horrible level designs, really lame bosses, and was rushed. The level design issue is the worst with such wonderful examples as Rainy Turturoid's room being so badly designed that you can't even use his weakness when playing as X, a jump in Gate stage 2 being impossible for everyone except Shadow X and Zero unless you have specific equipment on, and being able to accidentally stumble into High Max and be completely screwed if you don't have the right weapon. X7 is bad because of clunky controls (compared to other X games and the Zero series with the worst problems being with Zero), really lame bosses (such as the all popular to spoof Tornado Tonion), bad 3D sections (complete with bad camera) and bad balance between characters (Zero is practicaly unplayable in 3D sections compared to the others). The fighters aren't that bad, just horrifically shallow and mindless although the second one is a good improvement.

Yes, I've played both X6 and X7 and can justify my opinions from experience. As much as I would love to track X1-4, they don't track records so I can't. Curse you Maverick Hunter X for not storing records. X5 while not as good as X1-4 is not a bad game at all, merely decent.

The Zero series and Powered Up are just awesome even though I hate the retcon (awful one at that) that happened with Zero 4

[F-Man]

genus's post is exactly what makes me hope TSC will never become democratic.

[General Throatstomper]

Do expand your point so that others either recognize its merit and change how they think of my ideas, or can dismiss you as making no sense; otherwise you saying something like that doesn't serve any purpose, aside from hoping someone thinks you smarter for agreeing with them.

Do not spare my feelings, I want none of that and would like a breakdown of why what I suggested is a bad idea. I consider myself objective...go ahead, sway me.

[F-Man]

Do expand your point so that others either recognize its merit and change how they think of my ideas, or can dismiss you as making no sense; otherwise you saying something like that doesn't serve any purpose, aside from hoping someone thinks you smarter for agreeing with them.

Sorry, the thing is I could barely stand to read the whole thing, did I mention I'm not really into it these days and all? I do try to go back to your post and read more into it, the first time I replied (you can see it in Moron Archive) was a mistake, but now I've been able to read more than a sentence.

What I have now read is that you wanted games to be selectively chosen based on what certain members think of them and their merits. Now if everything on the site worked like that, maybe gems would be banned from Sonic 06 like magnum so wished (by the way magnum, if you seriously think they devoid the game of any of its skill and platforming elements, then I can see how much you even tried). Or more seriously, the game, as fun as it is to compete in, would not be here, because people who aren't me or Da1 or PsyBorg, people like mike or genus or Rolken (I could go on and on on listing people who haven't even played it and have entirely based their judgment on what they've heard and set it in stone) say it "sucks".

Me on the other hand have always said to list any new games. Take your time if you must (eventually I'll have to look into being able to do it all myself for the games I like), but let everyone compete in what they want to. This is The Sonic Center (we've earned the title, by the way) and we don't need other crappier sites to pick up what we don't take because it "sucks".

As long as I'll be here, I'll keep defending normal in-game items. I think I wanted this to be a metaphor. Just like I did with something in Sonic 06, I'll do it for entire games. And letting anyone decide with stupid polls (yeah I'm looking at the s1gba one) can only direct to horrible inconsistencies in how we work and serve the time attacking starving community.

[magnum12]

Sure the purple and sky gems take skill to use (should have looked into them more before passing judgement), but I can't say the same about the red gem. If not for the busted gauge, I'd have no complaints. As it is now,  it is very similar to the TBG in terms of effect on competition (those who have experienced the horror of that monster can testify to that). How much skill does it take to simply hold R to get a permanent 1/2 strength TBG (Team Dark) effect? Grrr. My blood pressure's rising from the mere thought of that waste of a DVD (and 60 bucks). I could always cheer myself up by finding unwanted copies of the game, making footage of myself destroying them in some horrible fashion (blow torch, on train tracks, parody of skeet shooting, spinning it on a sanding belt) and putting the video on Youtube. Anyone got any more ideas on how to do it?

Anyway, I believe we have all the rulings we needed to address if we do put Mario and Mega Man games covered. To my knowledge, we would be the only site that would have competition dedicated specifically to those games in the detail we have placed into them (certainly much more than Cyberscore puts into them) with better ways to find cheaters.

[Rolken]

OK, I don't yet have a response to this topic generally, but this specifically demands response. If you are not a person who thinks the series has declined in quality since 3D, please ignore this post, I don't want this thread to get hijacked into yet another sonic quality war.

people like mike or genus or Rolken (I could go on and on on listing people who haven't even played it and have entirely based their judgment on what they've heard and set it in stone) say it "sucks".

For the past five years, the 3D sonic games have steadily declined with each new entry. When a person has played each of the four previous games, personally observed that decline, and then the fifth entry is met with literally universal condemnation by everyone on the planet who is not specifically a huge Sonic fan, it is ludicrous to suggest that connecting the dots and drawing the obvious conclusion is somehow intellectually inferior to putting your faith (in the form of $60) in Sega somehow pulling a rabbit out of the hat and defying the course of history and the obvious implications of their "It's-Only-E3-Keep-Hope-Alive" demo while basically demonstrating that every apparently sane person on the planet in fact has terrible taste in gaming.

Again, if a person is itching to defend the game after reading this post, great, go do it in another topic. All I'm saying is that to insist you need to personally experience everything that comes out of Sonic Team in order to cast judgment is as silly as the people who defend 3% presidential candidates in the final days before a vote thinking that a final bizarre surge in support will suddenly manifest a success out of a sea of failure.

[Stefan]

I agree wholeheartedly that quality in 3d games has steadily declined; even ssr, the "rebirth" of 3d sonic, is significantly worse than sonic adventure 2. I recognize that these games are declining in quality.

I fail to see, however, how tracking these games reduces the quality of TSC in any way, shape, or form. How does tracking s06 make tsc a worse site? It attracted Da1andonlysonic, one of the most talented members of the site. Even if it were to only get existing members to play, it wouldn't hurt the site! It provides an extra facet for competition, no matter how shortlived it is.

Can someone provide a valid reason as to how tracking less popular games actually hurts the site?

[Crowbar]

Because for every one decent member they may bring in there are a thousand morons.

[Stefan]

How does a game with 24 competitors, almost all of the good ones from tsc -to begin with-, bring in 1000 more bad competitors than good ones? I see 1 great competitor, DA1, brought in. I see, as a counterpoint, only one new member that's green or better (finalrush7), who clearly is not a moron. All the other new s06 players haven't negatively affected tsc at all (aside s&a, but that's unrelated to the quality of games).

I fail to see how your logic is valid or even applies to games that are "unpopular". Since unpopular, by definition, applies to games that aren't well played on tsc, why would they bring in thousands of morons? I could see your point if it were a well played bad game, but in the case of sonic 06 it just isn't so. It's not well played, and clearly, if nobody plays it on tsc, cannot bring many people to tsc.

Even given the circumstance that unpopular games are a hindrance to TSC, there's clear discrimination against 3d games. Everyone's quick to point out rivals, s06, and ssr as unpopular titles. Unmentioned, however, are the numerous gamegear/32x/ generally unowned games. Only one game hasn't been submitted to in December (Sonic Jam). In fact, it's been over 4 months since it's been submitted to. It has a total of TEN PLAYERS. Does anyone claim that sonic jam is bringing the quality of tsc down? Not that I've seen. Despite being on tsc for a year longer, sonic triple trouble has fewer players than s06. Why is nobody claiming that triple trouble was an error? Chaos? Drift 1/2? Chaotix? SPA? Despite being up significantly longer than s06, these games have around the same amount of players,  sometimes even less. What makes these games acceptable but makes shadow/s06/ssr not? The sheer number of these games and unbelievably low number of players for them would suggest they have been far more of a hindrance to tsc's development than the newer 3d games have. Why don't they get the same negative coverage?

Because they are "classics" that defined the childhood of many of tsc's prominent members. They're sega in its PRIME, man!

It's a clear bias against 3d.

[Bilan]

I feel like interjecting at this point to say that for all the talkdowns I give to S06, its soley based on the camera with its mind of its own.

The rest of the game is actually pretty decent, I prefer the levels in S06 over a lot from SA1/2

[Shadow Jacky]

I get both sides to this little argument that sprung up and honestly I don't know what to think about the matter.  Stefan is right in what he said, although I wouldn't put those 32x/GG/Saturn and other obscure games as "classics" because they fall into the same category as the newer games of today with the same reason as to why no one hardly plays them...they either suck or hardly owned. (sorry to those who liked Chaotix...but damn).

I agree with F-Man that eliminating bad games from the site wouldn't be a good move and now it sounds like we're becoming more elitist with this notion by only going by high standards and if that happened earlier, most of these games (some of which I've competed in) wouldn't exist here.  That's not the case though.  Now for these "idiots", I haven't seen a trend of folk come here.  I have seen good players that "act" like idiots and players who aren't just that great but still act with some decency come here and stay.  So just which of these people are we trying to get rid of?  Now I don't notice everyone that comes to this place so correct me if I'm wrong.  (I don't count the bots that come and post shit and leave)

Thing is, what I've gotten from the discussions that have gone on in chat is that, we cant exist for too long with how the current trend of sonic games come and go.  They aren't consistent and either bomb, do well, or mediocre. 


-Shadow did ok for its time in the spotlight, but only because it was another 3-D game and people thought it might be great.  Some people still think this, but the majority doesn't when played a lot.  Competition in that has come to a halt with only 1 person and that took months for that 1 person to come here (that would be OmegaDJ in which I've recruited from youtube and so far hasn't acted like an idiot)

-Sonic Riders was pretty nice as well.  I liked it better than Sonic R myself, but I see that in the rankings that "R" has more people?  Wtf?  I could blame Sonic Gems in that it allowed more people to play some of these obscure titles with the need of multiple old systems.  53 players isn't so bad, but its not great either.

-Sonic the Hedgehog 06...I don't need to say more.  The only thing that bothers me is the damn loading times and the glaring glitches and problems that sonic team still cant seem to fix (also the new ones that have been brought forth) or just don't want to...whatever the case.  Another thing to me hurt it was that not everyone owns a PS3 or 360.  Also its being discontinued...that should say something

-Sonic Secret Rings was (to me) pretty nice, but too many missions hurt it for me.  I'm not going to go into its competitive game play (in which I'm talking about the various techniques like sky glitching), but this wasn't a game particularly liked by most due to its on-rails system of play and the controls aren't exactly top notch.

-Sonic Rivals...well I cant say that it sucks completely or not, but not everyone owns a PSP that comes here. 

-The Rush series for instance was kickass by everyone who comes across it, but SRA isn't doing that great even though its at 31 players and seems to be even better than Rush so I don't get this at all.

Which brings up another thing to me.  Most of these games can be found on Nintendo systems and that's the majority of its users here. 

Now from that SRA has more players, but only so few who are new to this place because of it and its still not as high as Rush 1.  The fact that these titles are getting more exclusive doesn't help in the matter either. 

Now with what Rolken was saying (in which I agree) that because of this, we have to change (genus covered this).  Dont know if you've noticed, but of sites like Mr. FixitOnline, SMBElite (which changed to EliteScores), Elite.net, MerqeryCity...probably some more, but these sites used to only cater to 1 series of games and the same from Sonic has happened...they haven't been making good games lately or just stopped and because of that have either died or competition just became really slow and how can a place like this with this many games under its belt just succumb to that kind of treatment.  I dont want that to happen as its painful when the site is down, but what's worse...a dead site or a down site?  Even with the subsites merging, I have no clue how that would go and right now they aren't doing so well on their own as it is.

Regardless if you find a game that you like, but others don't, you aren't the majority of the members that come and go.  We cant just go on by with only the exiting active members playing anything that's new, because even that wont last. 

[eggFL]

OK, I don't yet have a response to this topic generally, but this specifically demands response. If you are not a person who thinks the series has declined in quality since 3D, please ignore this post, I don't want this thread to get hijacked into yet another sonic quality war.

people like mike or genus or Rolken (I could go on and on on listing people who haven't even played it and have entirely based their judgment on what they've heard and set it in stone) say it "sucks".

For the past five years, the 3D sonic games have steadily declined with each new entry. When a person has played each of the four previous games, personally observed that decline, and then the fifth entry is met with literally universal condemnation by everyone on the planet who is not specifically a huge Sonic fan, it is ludicrous to suggest that connecting the dots and drawing the obvious conclusion is somehow intellectually inferior to putting your faith (in the form of $60) in Sega somehow pulling a rabbit out of the hat and defying the course of history and the obvious implications of their "It's-Only-E3-Keep-Hope-Alive" demo while basically demonstrating that every apparently sane person on the planet in fact has terrible taste in gaming.

Again, if a person is itching to defend the game after reading this post, great, go do it in another topic. All I'm saying is that to insist you need to personally experience everything that comes out of Sonic Team in order to cast judgment is as silly as the people who defend 3% presidential candidates in the final days before a vote thinking that a final bizarre surge in support will suddenly manifest a success out of a sea of failure.

That's just dumb because Heroes and Shadow were not terrible games, and Shadow was not even strictly worse than Heroes. For fans of the series, there was really no way to know that Sonic06 would follow the trend of decline... because there was none. (to us) Just because we have different views, doesn't make us stupid.

And the analogy doesn't make any sense, because it's quite literally impossibly for a 3% candidate in the final days to turn around and get elected. But the result of one game does not have any real affect on how the next game turns out. In fact, Sonic06 alone proves this, because whereas Shadow and Heroes were perfectly fine games, Sonic06 is vastly more shoddily made and goes against so many things Shadow and Heroes establish about Sonic gameplay. We would have been better off with a next gen Shadow, YOU can't tell me you would have known that the quality and design would take a drop so severely.

Game franchises go from one terrible game to a great game all the time, the more true in franchises that more games in it. (medal of honor vanguard compared to the two MoH released later in this year)

Further I guess yea if you don't value how special Sonic is, you wouldn't spend a precious $60 on it and instead get another game, like uhh GOD knows what. But umm I live and die by Sonic, and if Sonic dies, I am no longer a gamer, so YEA I think I'd buy the new 3D Sonic game. Not everyone is going to leave it on the shelf for the sole point of being an elitist, people want to believe Sonic can work, and they'll get and have fun with it when they can, what's wrong with that.

Because for every one decent member they may bring in there are a thousand morons.

you wish

I hate to reply to this only because others have said it so well already. (Stefan *nods*) But here's my take on it.

The lot of you have had this phrase or something along the lines of it so many times in this topic alone. But in my opinion that's truly what is turning TSC into a failure.

Because we are so shamelessly being elitist jackasses. The very idea of trying to improve and increase the community while unwelcoming and insulting new members just because of what they like is completely ludicrous, or maybe that's just me. It's like a small business opening up and trying to succeed with bad service and asking each patron if they are a dumbass. IMO the attitude towards new members, specifically or in general, is kind of appalling.

No matter what you guys do, you have to drop this attitude and at least act positive. All new members have to be welcomed unanimously. Anything else is turning this into a tight and very small community of angry elitists, and that will never keep this place alive. (or at least we already seem to be unhappy with that) I mean no matter what you do, put up Megaman games or whatever, if we choose to be upstanding elitists, it will still fail... especially if we still pretend to be or in fact remain to be a Sonic site at the core. (or even if we go by genus's idea straight up and have elitist standards on deciding every non-Sonic game we put up)

[Zeupar]

Code: [Select]

Monthly Summary | New Topics | New Posts | New Members | Most Online | Page Views
December 2007       146          1240              22          79         106457
November 2007      76 1230            63        24    86941
October 2007      52 1145            63        44    79609
September 2007      39   660            42        27    85102
August 2007      59   673            76        26    94151

(:

[ChaoRC]

Code: [Select]

Monthly Summary  New Members | Most Online
December 2007            22            79         
November 2007          63        24    
October 2007          63        44    
September 2007          42        27    
August 2007          76        26    

lolwut. Less new members and more activity?

[Shadowfan]

I have some ideas about how we could get TSC popular. Some of these might seem kinda stupid or out of our reach...

1.Get free online games. Everyone would be able to play them. Members would be able to submit their stats on each game to see who is the best in one division. In another division, we could have a seperate competition for guests. And we could have another divisiob containing stats from both divisions to see who is the best overal.

2. We could get Sonic DVD's and make them available to be watched online.

3. Some of the Sonic gurus such as Rolken, Gerbilsoft, etc. could make a Sonic trivia game with various levels.

4. We could have 2Player team tournaments. Members of TSC could join into teams. The pair with the weaker sitewide ranking would get to chose the game and the level, however all members of the match must have the game. Players have an hour or so to submit all the stats they can for that level. Stats would be judged. Team with better stats wins.

5. Another possibility would be to set up a Sonic-competition-season or seasons. They could be fall and spring with the playoffs in winter and summer. Divisions would be set up based on games. Players have a match like the one I described for the 2player team tournaments. Players play against each other players on different levels. Matches will extend for so long. Everyone shoul play the same number of matches. Then their are playoffs for the games and finally the Sonic Bowl.

These are my ideas. They may help TSC or they might be dumb. However I think they all are worth a try.   

[KnucklesSonic8]

It's not a matter of questioning TSC's popularity. That's almost undisputed. Heh.
But srsly, it's a matter of the competitions/games themselves as well as the people running the site as well as the forums themselves that's in question.

Quite frankly, it's not the games that need fixing. But that's just my take on the matter.
If SEGA is "declining", then that is hardly the fault of TSC. But to me, they're still standing and they haven't reached the point of no return.

But either way, I'm not giving up on TSC, as I haven't given up on the franchise or the company as a whole for that matter. TSC's still holding up and that's a good sign. But we have to do better, collaboratively. If you're not willing to accept that, then well, that's your choice but you'd be evidencing your lack of faith in TSC being able to hold up, and as such, the question should be posed: "What are you still doing here, then?"

I'm not going anywhere but at the same time, we all need to work together on this to make the site better.

I've always tried to do my part, despite the criticisms and the other stupidness I won't get into.
Not many people view me in the most positive light but at least I'm trying to help out and change. There are people here who need to change but they're not willing to accept the needed changes for one reason or another. And no, I'm not pointing fingers since all fingers could easily point back at me (in fact, I predict the next post, or at least one of the next 5 posts to be negative or critical - it's THAT predictable <_< - now, though, that I've said it. I'm sure people will intentionally refrain from expressing how they really feel, but it's the principle of the matter).

The site is NOT in jeopardy. It will be, though, if certain people refuse to change their attitude and continue to stay the way they are.

And with that, I thank you for reading this post thoroughly and not ignoring it or quickly replying after the first sentence as most people here do anyway.

[yse]

Okay so I felt the need to clarify my position and make a few points.

Funny how mike summarized a lot of my feelings about TSC and how I've noticed it's changes in development recently (for the worse).

Criticism and my name are in mixed company a lot.
Ignorance and bashing is also common here and, no, it is not bliss. FAR from it.

Riders 2 competition is the only thing I'm looking forward to here as I'm almost certain noone has the decency or the willingness to make my sub-site go up...

"Criticism and my name are in mixed company a lot." Where? Even at the time of your post, nobody has complained about you for months.

As for the sub-site, I'll address that in your topic if you so choose, but again, I don't want to sidetrack this one.

But seriously, ALL THE PROPOSALS we suggested and the ones that are STILL pending SHOULD be added.

This is definitely something that hasn't been handled very well. I could probably put the rest of them up tonight but for concerns about their viability... Rush special stages in particular is problematic.

If we do decide to track more games, we must be selective in what we choose to track. Quality should be a factor here; nobody wants to compete in bad games.

I urge everyone with sanity to ignore genus after this point. I have never expressed the view that we should cull games on the basis of their perceived quality - the only reason that a game (or indeed, a chart within a game) should not be considered for competition regards its competitive value and rules issues (sorry folks, but this is where Shuffle suffers, or at least as far as I've been able to ascertain).

No matter what you guys do, you have to drop this attitude and at least act positive. All new members have to be welcomed unanimously. Anything else is turning this into a tight and very small community of angry elitists, and that will never keep this place alive.

You won't hear me say this to egg too often, but I agree wholeheartedly. This is something I've been saying for a long time but probably haven't acted on enough. I'll have to work on it.

I have some ideas about how we could get TSC popular. Some of these might seem kinda stupid or out of our reach... *etc*

Most of that list is probably outside TSC's scope as a competitive site, or (particularly those tournament ideas you mentioned) are already on our Ideas List. In particular, I don't think trivia fits in well with TSC - but you know, it's always good to have more ideas on the table. I don't want to discourage that.

But srsly, it's a matter of the competitions/games themselves as well as the people running the site as well as the forums themselves that's in question.

Gee, not complaining about much, are you? :P

But we have to do better, collaboratively. If you're not willing to accept that, then well, that's your choice but you'd be evidencing your lack of faith in TSC being able to hold up, and as such, the question should be posed: "What are you still doing here, then?"

There are people here who need to change but they're not willing to accept the needed changes for one reason or another. And no, I'm not pointing fingers since all fingers could easily point back at me (in fact, I predict the next post, or at least one of the next 5 posts to be negative or critical - it's THAT predictable <_< - now, though, that I've said it. I'm sure people will intentionally refrain from expressing how they really feel, but it's the principle of the matter).

While I see where this is coming from, it is my firm belief that everyone in some position of power at TSC has earned it. These people have been not only awesome in the competitive scene, but a real asset to the community too, sometimes helping out with recruitment as well.

And clearly this topic has demonstrated that many people here are quite prepared to say what's really on their mind.

And here's one I've been keeping for last...

What we have here at Sonic Center is a neat idea that created a really great site. A site like that claims attention, and that quality brings a lot of people to here. Among them, interesting guys who want to keep sonic games' competition in a high level. But among them, we will also have those newbies that only want to annoy everyone else. Big and competent sites like this one will always be annoyed by those types, there's no other way, but we can't give up offering a good competition (and everything else) just because of them.

I think this hits the nail on the head. I've now reached the point where I can say that we have little control over who comes into the site, and that we should take it all as it comes. However I still reserve the right to call for a forum ban on someone like egg when deemed necessary. X)

[KnucklesSonic8]

What's this, someone actually showing second thoughts about my proposals? <_<
Sorry, had to say it. I'd appreciate it if you did, not to mention adding Riders: ZG.

The fact of the matter is, the site is slowly crumbling from the inside...

[Bilan]

AND MIKE IS THE ONE BASHING IT WITH THE HAMMER

AMIRITE CHAPS

[KnucklesSonic8]

Mike, if you are GENUINELY interested in adding them, PLEASE DO SO.
Also, sub-site would be appreciated since noone seems to care for what I say here.

Also Riders: ZG and Mario/Sonic Olympics (<- if my subsite doesn't get added)...

If you need a reminder of everything, let me know...
But a lot of stuff have been sorted out and there are things that should've gone up from the beginning (case in point: Heroes Special Stages is STILL not up, Riders missions, etc.)

[yse]

I've got a topic with everything in it. *search*

NEW GAMES
Sonic Shuffle Not on my watch!

NEW TIMES
Sonic Battle
Sonic Riders (Tag, Survival Race, Survival Battle, Mission modes)
Sonic Drift/Drift 2 fastest laps

NEW SCORES
Sonic Heroes Special Stages
Sonic Heroes - Chaotix Extra missions Falls under the existing Chaotix charts

SPECIAL STAGES
Sonic Rush? Up
Sonic Chaos/Triple Trouble?

MISCELLANEOUS
Sonic 2 GG - Act 3 scores Up

I'm short on time tomorrow but when I get back I'll sort out the Sonic 2 GG scores, Drift fastest laps if I can rearrange the charts properly, and those pesky Special Stages. It looks like Rush will go up. Sonic Heroes I'll need to test some things on first, so don't expect those to go up before the weekend is out.

As for the others, I don't know specifics on Sonic Battle, I'm still getting mixed signals on Riders, and Shuffle... well you know where I stand on that one.